HAL 9010', do you often reply to yourself? Apparently agreeing with yourself too, and maybe disagreeing as well? Rather confusing....

Anyway, the Nazis knew about the medallion and who had it. That message was intercepted by the US government, and the agents told Indy about it when they met. The Nazis likely knew where Marion was, but may have figured that Indy would have an easier time getting it from her, and then they just take it from HIIM.

@Knixon said:

I think it's... short-sighted, or something... to say that Indy "failed" just because his task was supposed to be to bring the Ark to the university/museum, which didn't end up happening. It was far more important that it not be used by the Nazis to take over the world, which he did play a huge role in achieving. (Although there seems to be some evidence that the Ark would not have allowed itself to be used that way, either. Otherwise why destroy the Nazis that opened it on the island? It wasn't just a Good Little Ark that follows orders. It recognized good vs evil on its own.)

I agree. It is incorrect to judge his success on where the Ark ends up. His goal was to get it before the Nazi and bring it to safety. He did. What a hero :)

I disagree though that the ark could not be used to benefit the Nazi.

Truthfully we do not know anything about what is in the box. It is clearly an ancient magical force and we know from the other movies such forces exist in this universe. And not all are Judaic. To me it did not look like a God of good. Even the flying angles display daemon like characteristics.

What we do know though is that this box holds immense power. And we also know Indy cries to keep their eyes shot in order to not to be vaporized.... why did he say this? Again idk, but it worked and if it worked because of this... ergo it means that it kills good guys too, provided they don't close their eyes... so truthfully all we know is that the box has destructive power and kills, unless you do not look upon its content.

In other words, perhaps all the Nazi had to do was to smuggle it to London and open it, and wait a few minutes while having their eyes closed... and if it only kills none-judaic followers ... the Nazi could use it to clean out a lot of Russia, Africa, Middel-east etc.

Now of course we see that the Nazi symbol on the box was burned away during transport, but knowing how vindictive the god of the old testaments was written, perhaps it just didn’t like anything symbols except its own (this seem to be a theme, just ask Moses).

No matter how it may work, a potential destructive weapon like the ark should be held out of reach of our enemy...

To me it seems anyone who views its content will parish, which is why even goodies like Indy and Marion had to keep their eyes shot.

@Knixon said:

HAL 9010', do you often reply to yourself? Apparently agreeing with yourself too, and maybe disagreeing as well? Rather confusing....

Anyway, the Nazis knew about the medallion and who had it. That message was intercepted by the US government, and the agents told Indy about it when they met. The Nazis likely knew where Marion was, but may have figured that Indy would have an easier time getting it from her, and then they just take it from HIIM.

Sorry my bad. I replied my own comment by mistake. I corrected it above.

We know the SS looking Nazi was shadowing Indy all the way from America and in my view he did this because they did not know where Marion actually was.

Also, they were looking for Dr Ravenwood, not her. Indy knew she was the way to get to Dr Ravenwood. Or at least this was his theory at first.

Besides, if they knew where she and it was and just wanted Indy to get it from her first as you say, why not just wait by her Inn in Nepal... the tail on indy starting all the way from America - several stops and possibly days before he arrives in Nepal (and a tail by the main baddie, no less) makes only sense if they did not know her whereabouts. Indy led them to her. A clever play on their parts... plus, when they finally arrive they do not try and take it from him, as you speculate (he was supposed to get it the next morning after) ... no, they try to take it from her first.. so in my view this part of your theory is not well supported in the movie.

I'm pretty sure Indy found Dr Ravenwood's corpse early in the film, before the huge rolling boulder. So he knew Ravenwood was dead, before the U.S. agents contacted him.

@Knixon said:

I'm pretty sure Indy found Dr Ravenwood's corpse early in the film, before the huge rolling boulder. So he knew Ravenwood was dead, before the U.S. agents contacted him.

No. He ask Marion where Abner is, and she tells him he is dead.

Wasn’t it a Forrestal he finds as a dead corpse in the intro jungle scene? He says he was not his friend, but a very very good competitor or something to that affect

@HAL 9010' said:

@Knixon said:

I'm pretty sure Indy found Dr Ravenwood's corpse early in the film, before the huge rolling boulder. So he knew Ravenwood was dead, before the U.S. agents contacted him.

No. He ask Marion where Abner is, and she tells him he is dead.

Wasn’t it a Forrestal he finds as a dead corpse in the intro jungle scene? He says he was not his friend, but a very very good competitor or something to that affect

Yes, it was Forrestal which leads me to a point I don't think has been made yet. Without Indy, I don't think Belloq would have survived to lead the Nazis to the Ark. Forrestal was killed and Jones only barely survived. Belloq never attempts to enter and if he did there's a good chance he'd have died.

If Indy had died and Belloq survived there's a good chance that Belloq would have taken longer to find the idol, putting him out of reach of the Nazis who would wish to recruit him. And according to Sallah, the Nazis were too stupid ("They have not one brain among them...except one") to find the Ark without Belloq.

So Indiana Jones was essential to Belloq and without him the Ark was unlikely to have been found.

Oh that's right, it wasn't Ravenwood whose corpse he found. And if Belloq had tried to retrieve the gold idol himself, he likely would have died too. So by Indy basically saving his life, that made the rest of the Nazis' mission possible.

Someone should point that out to Amy!

But the whole basis of her argument was a theoretical claim among English lit majors and maybe theater critics or whatever, that stories have to follow a certain kind of logic they impose from outside, or it 'fails.' Nonsense.

@AlienFanatic said:

@HAL 9010' said:

@Knixon said:

I'm pretty sure Indy found Dr Ravenwood's corpse early in the film, before the huge rolling boulder. So he knew Ravenwood was dead, before the U.S. agents contacted him.

No. He ask Marion where Abner is, and she tells him he is dead.

Wasn’t it a Forrestal he finds as a dead corpse in the intro jungle scene? He says he was not his friend, but a very very good competitor or something to that affect

Yes, it was Forrestal which leads me to a point I don't think has been made yet. Without Indy, I don't think Belloq would have survived to lead the Nazis to the Ark. Forrestal was killed and Jones only barely survived. Belloq never attempts to enter and if he did there's a good chance he'd have died.

If Indy had died and Belloq survived there's a good chance that Belloq would have taken longer to find the idol, putting him out of reach of the Nazis who would wish to recruit him. And according to Sallah, the Nazis were too stupid ("They have not one brain among them...except one") to find the Ark without Belloq.

So Indiana Jones was essential to Belloq and without him the Ark was unlikely to have been found.

I don’t know man. Belloq didn’t seem like the kind of guy that would get his own hands dirty. A bit of a stretch imo, but fun speculation.

Anyhow, I am sure Belloq is not the only archeologist expert the Nazi’s could go to. It is not like he is the ONLY way for them pursue their interest in the occult archeology. That would be silly

@Knixon said:

Oh that's right, it wasn't Ravenwood whose corpse he found. And if Belloq had tried to retrieve the gold idol himself, he likely would have died too. So by Indy basically saving his life, that made the rest of the Nazis' mission possible.

Someone should point that out to Amy!

But the whole basis of her argument was a theoretical claim among English lit majors and maybe theater critics or whatever, that stories have to follow a certain kind of logic they impose from outside, or it 'fails.' Nonsense.

Naaa, I don’t buy this reasoning about Belloq either :o) It is not like he is the only archeologist expert the Nazi’s could go to for them to chase their lust for the occult archeology. The world doesn’t revolve around Belloq. That would be silly.

If he had died like Forrestal in the jungle, it would have just been some other dude leading the dig site.

@HAL 9010' said:

@Knixon said:

Oh that's right, it wasn't Ravenwood whose corpse he found. And if Belloq had tried to retrieve the gold idol himself, he likely would have died too. So by Indy basically saving his life, that made the rest of the Nazis' mission possible.

Someone should point that out to Amy!

But the whole basis of her argument was a theoretical claim among English lit majors and maybe theater critics or whatever, that stories have to follow a certain kind of logic they impose from outside, or it 'fails.' Nonsense.

Naaa, I don’t buy this reasoning about Belloq either :o) It is not like he is the only archeologist expert the Nazi’s could go to for them to chase their lust for the occult archeology. The world doesn’t revolve around Belloq. That would be silly.

If he had died like Forrestal in the jungle, it would have just been some other dude leading the dig site.

Possibly true, but we never find out who directed the Nazis to find Abner Ravenwood or his daughter. It's strongly implied by the presence of the mysterious stranger (actually ILM special effects boss Dennis Muren) aboard Indy's flight to Nepal that they followed him to find Marion. Was it Belloq that cued them in? Would they have found her without Belloq or Indy? It's certain they'd never have found the Ark without her medallion.

I really think too much hinges on the participation of Indy and Belloq and that no other archaeologist would have had the particular knowledge that they did.

@AlienFanatic said:

It's certain they'd never have found the Ark without her medallion.

I do not think this is certain at all. Look at it like this: The Nazi had already found the Lost City of Tanis and this is long before they had any hopes of finding the medallion. And they were digging like madmen, employing all diggers in the area - as Salah tells us. This shows us that their strategy was first to go methodically through the City; tomb by tomb.

When we enter the picture a lot of the city is actually uncovered and they seem still digging with great vigor. And they even have a perfect miniature map of the city by then, showing the whereabouts of all the tombs - including where the Ark is hid (the very reason for this miniature city in the first place, I take it). This model map alone would help the dig site tremendously, and virtually guarantee success at one point.

So really, the Nazi was going at it with or without the medallion... The way it seem to me is that this medallion simply speeds up the tedious process of going through every damn tomb. And I think this shortcut is highly likely the brainchild of Belloq, as you put it (including the tail on Indy to sniff our Dr Ravenwood).

Btw that they would find the Ark eventually with or without the medallion also explains why Indy still needs to get to the Ark first, even that he knows they have a "wrong" copy of the medallion. Also, they did not go back to America after Nepal for the same reason... it was a race. One would win it at one point in time, in one way or another. The task was to get to it first and the medallion was one of many such ways...

In my view, Indy plays an humongous role in getting the Ark away from the Nazi in time. The Nazi has a thirst for the occult in this universe, and go at it tenaciously... and frankly, there are plenty of Belloqs out there to help... beside "Temple of Doom", each movie introduces us to a few of those.

@wonder2wonder said:

In "The Big Bang Theory" Amy said:

"It was very entertaining despite the glaring story problem."

"All right. Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren’t in the film, it would turn out exactly the same."

"No, I do, and if he weren’t in the movie, the Nazis would have still found the ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died, just like they did. Let me close that for ya."

She focusses here only on the object and not on the person. She states everything as a true irrefutable fact, while they remain questionable. According to her there are no other possibilities: the Nazis will always find the Ark, they will always take it to the island, they will always open it up and all will always die. If you believe she is all knowing and infallible then ­"it would turn out exactly the same". You can then enjoy this movie as a documentary with life actors.

I prefer to see this as a one big adventure movie with Indy as my daring guide and invincible hero.

What do you think?

The movie is a story of collectively all of them and that's why it's titled 'Raiders' and not just 'Raider'. It sets the adventures of the protagonist Indiana Jones as he, and others, thrives to look for the Ark.

At the end, no body gets nothing.

@wonder2wonder said:

In "The Big Bang Theory" Amy said:

the Nazis will always find the Ark

True. They went head strong for it and were well on their way even before Indy got involved. In fact, this is the reason the US government contracted Indy it the first place (to get to it before the Nazi). And since they already had discovered The Lost City of Tanis and had a complete miniature model map of all its tombs and had uncovered much of the city when we enter the story.. . it would be a question of time.

they will always take it to the island

Wrong. They take it to the island BECAUSE Indy blew up their plane. Without Indy they would have taken it to Berlin. However and as Belloq makes clear, they had to investigate it first before any great unveil to the Nazi high command. So, if not to the Island, then some other research Nazi facility for sure.

and all will always die.

Wrong, or rather unknown. Since Indy threw a monkey wrench into their plans we do not know under which circumstances they would have opened it later. Likely similar, but who knows? Not Amy, not we. However, as Belloq says, they would have to check it thoroughly first. So surely the deadly power of the Ark would be learned somehow. The difference is that without Indy butting in, this learning would have been under complete Nazi control somewhere in Germany... imagine a hangar full of vaporized Nazi lab assistants.... and the Ark's powers would then surely be apparent for the cleanup team .... and not least for the next team of researchers...however, still under Nazi control.

­"it would turn out exactly the same".

Wrong, as a matter of fact . Her above points are not true except just one of them, which is an apparent plot element in the story. And that one would still depends on time and efforts etc. and so who knows really when this point would come to fruition... in any case, Indy had a tremendous effect on the outcome and the events of the whole movie, some of them risky indeed. But if not for him, the Ark would be under the control of the Nazi - and thereby risking them learning how to utilize its power somehow for evil.

What do you think?

Amy is wrong. Indy is a hero.

It seems to me the only difference after Indy blowing up the plane, is how the Ark gets to the island. It might have been going by submarine to the island in any event, but instead of the plane taking it to a port where it gets transferred to the sub, it goes by truck to the port where it goes onto a cargo ship, which is then intercepted by the sub. I don't think they would have risked taking it to Germany directly, in any event.

And the island setup was pretty sophisticated, with the submarine entrance and stuff. It's not like they just pulled up to a makeshift wooden pier or something. That's part of what told me they were planning on bringing it to the island the whole time. The "impossible" part is how Indy got there too. The sub isn't likely to have been surfaced the whole time, and if it dove then Indy would have drowned if he were still outside. But how would he have kept from being discovered if he went inside? And how COULD he have gotten inside, anyway? It seemed like all the doors were closed/locked, and they probably only open from the inside.

@Knixon said:

It seems to me the only difference after Indy blowing up the plane, is how the Ark gets to the island. It might have been going by submarine to the island in any event, but instead of the plane taking it to a port where it gets transferred to the sub, it goes by truck to the port where it goes onto a cargo ship, which is then intercepted by the sub. I don't think they would have risked taking it to Germany directly, in any event.

And the island setup was pretty sophisticated, with the submarine entrance and stuff. It's not like they just pulled up to a makeshift wooden pier or something. That's part of what told me they were planning on bringing it to the island the whole time. The "impossible" part is how Indy got there too. The sub isn't likely to have been surfaced the whole time, and if it dove then Indy would have drowned if he were still outside. But how would he have kept from being discovered if he went inside? And how COULD he have gotten inside, anyway? It seemed like all the doors were closed/locked, and they probably only open from the inside.

Why a risk to fly it? The events are several years before the war. It all happened in 1936.

1: They say it was going to Germany

2: When they loose the plane, the say they will drive it in a truck to Cairo and fly it out from there (still to Germany we must assume). So the Submarine was not part of the original plan.

3: Submarines are more fuel efficient when not submerged (it takes a lot more fuel to push water away than air) - and since this was not during war time and not during a military exercise, there was absolutely no reason to submerge it.

4: The Submarine lair was a military installation... of which they had several in the Mediterranean.